Deviant Login Shop  Join deviantART for FREE Take the Tour
About Varied / Hobbyist Member MelissaFemale/United States Recent Activity
Deviant for 7 Years
Needs Premium Membership
Statistics 92 Deviations 1,323 Comments 9,493 Pageviews

Newest Deviations

Favourites

Groups

  • Reading: This intense debate...
  • Watching: Kaze no Stigma
  • Eating: Rolos
  • Drinking: Water

So, I was just browsing the internet this fine evening, and I came across this NS/NH Debate. Apparently, what started this argument was that the Anonymous NS had made a comment on a fellow NS's wall asking Anonymous NH to be civil, and then Anonymous NH tracked down Anonymous NS and started ripping on her. Below is their debate. I thought that there were some ingenious points brought up, so I thought I would share.

So who do you think won the argument?? ;)


P.S. I kept the shippers anonymous so that there would be no bashing of the persons and we could just focus on their debating skills. :D



Anonymous NH

This is a reply to your comment on that one NStard's profile.

How was that not nice? I was stating the truth in a sarcastic tone. Of course it's a matter of perspective, that's why there are NH fans and NS fans.

Lol, not everyone in your fandom knows it was just CPR, i mean have you seen the edits on tumblr or what?

Yeah it's real symbolic how her hand is literally in his body manually pumping his heart. So romantiku <3

Obviously it's supposed to be emotional, i mean SHE CUT INTO HIS BODY. I don't see why you're giving me information we already know (other than the conspiracy that symbolism was present in 663)

I never said she was selfish in her motive so why exactly are you even bringing it up?

Her thinking about Naruto's dream isn't romantic. In fact, it's the least romantic road Kishi could have taken for this scene. If he really wanted to Kishi could just show Sakura thinking about how Naruto can't leave HER and how she doesn't want him to die. Instead, he shows her being a good friend and actually caring about his "stupid dream".

 

Anonymous NS

In my most humble opinion, sarcastic downgrading strung through with profanity isn't the kindest sort of conversation you could have with someone ^^ And you can't claim anything to be truth until Kishi announces what the truth is, because if we both got to claim our opinions were truths then our truths would cancel each other out and that's not what truth is ;)

 

I think that her worrying about him fulfilling his dream makes their relationship even better, because she doesn't want him to die for HIM, not for HER. If that makes sense. It makes her motives even more 'unselfish,' not that it'd be selfish for her to not want him to die. But instead of worrying about him being there for her, she's worrying about him not being able to accomplish everything for himself, wanting to make it so he can live to be happy, not so she can be happy, which shows how deep her love for him goes.

 

And yeah, I know it's all medical procedure, but like I stated, Kishi chose who does what and the fact of the matter is everything that Sakura did was extremely intimate within the context of the scene. And admit it, if it had been Hinata or something trying to give Naruto rescue breathing, you guys would be flipping out too. You flipped out over hand-holding chakra transfer - and I admit, that definitely gives you guys points and if Naruto had done that to Sakura, we'd be excited.

 

So why not let opposing ships glorify in the moments we receive instead of trying to rip them apart, eh? Because as far as I'm concerned, that whole scene was laced through and through with NaruSaku feels. :D

 

Anonymous NH

In case you haven't noticed yet, I wasn't being nice. She bashed Hinata, NaruHina, as well as a couple other characters. You should go look what she wrote and then rethink why I commented what I commented. And once again I didn't claim anything so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

 

Of course it makes their relationship better. She loves him and cares for him. Only problem (for you guys at least) is that this love isn't romantic; it's platonic and at time familial (which is what she portrayed these last few chapters).  Oh and that's where your claim backfires right at you: Love is selfish. Loving someone for yourself is selfish but also selfless, because you're providing the love back to your partner. That's the big difference between NS and NH/SS. Her love for him is not romantic, and until you understand that you're just filling yourself up with false hope. I suggest you rethink what you should be shipping in canon so you don't regret it later.

 

If it were Hinata it would be the same context, unless she makes it romantic. That's something you don't understand: Hinata's love for Naruto is romantic while Sakura loves Naruto as a close friend and family member. Naruto was the one who held her hand and thanked her for being by his side this whole time. So now I can use your argument against you, again. Kishi could've just put Naruto thanking Hinata and then giving her a high-five or pat on the back. Instead he chose to dedicate one whole chapter, a volume cover, and individual panels leading up to the hand-hold to further emphasize its importance and its romantic undertones.

 

You can glorify all you want, but once you start twisting context and adding fake symbolism, that's where I draw the fine line.

 

Anonymous NS

As far as I can see from her profile, someone came up and commented on her profile, calling NS fans retards for thinking NH won't happen (for good reason!) and basically trying to shove it in people's face and claim it was canon. That isn't very nice. When NS becomes canon, I'm not going to shove it in NH fans' faces because I know how not getting your ship can demolish your love for a story (Avatar, Hunger Games, Vampire Knight<--no one got their ship with that one!). I'll feel ecstatic for myself, but I WILL feel bad for you guys.

 

"That's the big difference between NS and NH/SS. Her love for him is not romantic, and until you understand that you're just filling yourself with false hope." - Big, blaringly obvious defect in your argument: Naruto loves SAKURA. He's loved her from the beginning and still does, plus he's the main character so his feelings matter most. It's a perk of being protagonist. Someone's gotta change their feelings, and the person in the most realistic position to do so is Sakura. Hinata's love for Naruto is only for personal character development. They share hardly any time together and have gotten hardly any development. I just don't understand how people could possibly see NH as so likely, when looking at it from a story-writing perspective, NaruSaku has all the benefits, which I don't feel like writing out because I've recently done so. I can understand how you could like NaruHina. It all depends on personal taste, but most unbiased nonshippers admit that NaruSaku is most likely. It was like when I was a Zutara fan. I loved it, even though I knew deep within my heart that Kataang would happen because it made the most sense - and Katara was much more sisterly to him, in my opinion, than Sakura is to Naruto.

 

There is nothing that says that Naruto and Sakura's relationship is that of brother/sister. That's just fans of other couples wanting to explain away the bond that Naruto and Sakura share, which you guys can do within your own groups to boost morale, but don't claim that as truth because it isn't. Besides, it kinda throws off the brother/sister dynamic if one is in love with the other and constantly trying to win her romantic affection.

 

As for the heart pumping symbolic part I mentioned, that was mostly just a joke. Kinda. I know how Kishi loves symbolism. But there are totally romantic undertones in this chapter that you just don't see because you've put up your blinders. I mean, it can't be a flat our romantic scene because now is NOT the time for romance, but it's all shown through Sakura's panic at losing him, the fact that their lips touch in CPR which is used as a technique by many authors to develop romantic relationships even though the act itself isn't romantic, and all the panels building up Sakura's fear and determination to save him. The original CPR 'kiss' was a huge panel, obviously meant to draw attention to the fact. And though I never really cared for SasuKarin, I'm beginning to think it might actually be likely due to this chapter - it was a huge parallel (another thing Kishi loves). Sakura fighting with all her might to save Naruto and Karin fighting with all her might to save Sasuke. So yeah, this whole chapter is dedicated to the devotion those two women have for their men ;)

 

Heh, and you can't claim me as being a hater because I frickin cosplayed as Hinata! ;P

 

Anonymous NH

I was being sarcastic, not shoving my ship in anyone's face. You really do have reading comprehension issues.

"Naruto loves SAKURA. He's loved her from the beginning and still does, plus he's the main character so his feelings matter most."

Never in the manga does Naruto state that he loves Sakura, and never in the manga is this crush of his taken seriously. Honestly, liking a girl because of her beauty is pretty shallow and not enough to be considered love, eh? Also, just because he's the main character doesn't mean he'll get what he wants. That's something you just need to understand: Even if Naruto loved Sakura, you can't just FORCE someone to love another person because they're more important than you.

 

"They share hardly any time together and have gotten hardly any development."

1)Quality > Quantity

2) Hinata couldn't even speak to Naruto in part 1 without stuttering, now you see her slapping him in front of a whole army and REAFFIRMING him of their SHARED nindo. She;s protected him at least 4 times in this war itself, and he also protected her. At least Naruto thinks Hinata is strong, I mean look at him and Sakura. He underestimated her abilities when he told her to stay and rest with the alliance. That in itself should show to you how little they both understand each other.

 

"which I don't feel like writing out because I've recently done so."

Was there really a reason to put this into your argument? I don't understand your reasoning behind this. Are you trying to act intelligent or like you're too good for me or something?

 

"but most unbiased nonshippers admit that NaruSaku is most likely."

Lol, that's funny how you just randomly say that without proof. Let me ask you, why do you think SasuSaku and NaruHina are more popular overall than NaruSaku and (ew) SasuKarin? I'll just let you think about that on your own freetime ^o^

 

"There is nothing that says that Naruto and Sakura's relationship is that of brother/sister."

They're teammates who genuinely care about each other. And admit it, if it weren't for Sasuke calling Sakura out on her behavior towards Naruto, they wouldn't have gone this far in terms of their friendship. Kinda funny how it was Sasuke who started their platonic relationship.

 

 "constantly trying to win her romantic affection. "

Constantly? Come on now, be serious. This isn't time for joking.

When's the last time Naruto actually wanted Sakura's affection in the manga? Give me a number. Let me simplify it for you, it's probably about 300 chapters ago that he actually wanted her attention badly. So saying "constantly" is just making you look like a fool.

 

"As for the heart pumping symbolic part I mentioned, that was mostly just a joke. Kinda."

Of course you were. Your whole ship is a joke.

 

"it can't be a flat our romantic scene because now is NOT the time for romance"

Yeah, and maybe, oh I don't know, the other person is UNCONSCIOUS.

 

 "technique by many authors to develop romantic relationships even though the act itself isn't romantic, "

Hopeful thinking of yours. Why even bother including this?

 

"this whole chapter is dedicated to the devotion those two women have for their men"

Maybe for Karin, 'cause she has a sick obsession. But to Sakura it's her trying to save SOMEONE. Notice how in one panel she says, "I won't let SOMEONE so easily die on my watch!" This means that she cares about all her patients EQUALLY. Naruto obviously is emphasized because she actually knows him and has a deep bond with him. Again, you're adding romance to something that isn't supposed to be romantic at all.

 

Anonymous NS 

OMG, I hate my life. I had an enormous comment and then it was deleted!! All that research, all that work--!!!! *sigh* But it was all too beautiful to go to waste. So, here we go again *cries*

 

I don't know what manga you're reading, but it's repeatedly reinforced that Naruto cares for Sakura romantically. He doesn't care about her only because he thinks she's pretty. He does find her beautiful, which is precious, but he also admires her intelligence and capabilities (clearly stated when he says she's amazing for healing Kankuro). He finds her monster strength incredible. But more than that, they just like to spend time together. He cheers her up and she cheers him up. They protect each other. How is that a shallow relationship? Being protagonist doesn't necessarily mean you get what you want, but in this kind of manga it pretty much does. The whole point is that Naruto starts with nothing and through hard work and determination, he gets everything he wanted - respect, strength, and soon to be title of hokage, as well as the girl of his dreams, Sakura. To me, that seems to be where the story is heading. And yes, you're right. You can't just FORCE a person to like another person. Oops, looks like you just disproved your whole ship, because Naruto has never hinted at liking Hinata.

 

Quality is a matter of perspective. There is no concrete definition of the word 'quality.' Therefore, you cannot claim NaruHina=quality and NaruSaku=quantity as absolute. That can be a personal view, but it won't matter for the sake of the argument. However, it is provable that NaruSaku has a much higher quantity of moments. So, if I give both NaruSaku and NaruHina the benefit of the doubt and say both of their moments have quality, then quality+quantity > quality.

 

I have recently posted a 3,000 or so word NaruSaku proof journal entry, complete with proof pictures etc. That's what I was referring to. If you feel compelled to give it a look, please don't comment on the journal and direct any comments you have here.

 

Most unbiased shippers, from posts and threads I've seen, believe NaruSaku to be more of a possibility. I bring this up because they are able to look at the story through an unbiased lens and see only what Kishi has given them, without going deeper into the story and trying to find meanings that don't exist. I've also seen quite a few NaruHina shippers that feel discouraged because they don't believe their ship has a good chance of happening. Bringing in the popularity of SasuSaku and NaruHina is irrelevant to the point I was making, because I was stating the views of unbiased shippers. SasuSaku and NaruHina fans ship something, making them unqualified for the term 'nonshipper.' But in response to your comment, popularity of SasuSaku and NaruHina has no influence over what will happen in the manga, especially the popularity here in America. Actually, according to the most recent Japanese couple popularity poll I've seen, the most popular het ships are NaruSaku and SasuSaku. NaruHina was down about 40,000 votes, I believe. In Japan, the audience prefers Sakura over Hinata, by the fact that Sakura has beaten Hinata in popularity polls every time except for about two times, and therefore ships involving Sakura are more popular.

 

Being teammates who genuinely care for each other doesn't make a relationship platonic. It can go either way - point to a romantic relationship, or a platonic relationship. Sasuke telling Sakura to be nice to Naruto has nothing to do with this and proves nothing about their relationship being familial. Like I already stated previously, there is nothing you can say to prove Naruto and Sakura's relationship is only familial.

 

Saying constantly hardly makes me look like a fool. It seems you have just repressed countless moments from your memory because it doesn't support your ship, dearie. Now a pinch of advice: one of the things that makes arguments lose credibility faster than anything is ignoring information that is obviously true because it doesn't support your side. So claiming that Naruto doesn't love Sakura and "never has" makes your argument extremely vulnerable to being ripped apart.

 

Naruto chapter 457:

Sai: Naruto, you like Sakura, don't you.

Naruto: WHA?!

Sai: I read it in a book. People always smile around people they like, and you're always smiling at her. Have you told her how you feel?

Naruto: How can I? I can't even keep my promises...

 

Important thing to take from this: Sai says that Naruto likes Sakura, and Naruto is embarrassed and blushes. When Sai asks if he's told her how he feel, Naruto says, "How can I?" which is equivalent to "No." Meaning, he does have feelings for her and he hasn't told her.

 

So, since I apparently have to refresh your memory, in the very beginning of Part 2, after the bells fight, Naruto asks Sakura on a date. She agrees only if he pays, he can't pay, so she eats alone. Again, he tries to get her to go on a date with him after the Sai and Sasuke arc. After the Hidan and Kakuzu arc, when Naruto is injured, Sakura offers to feed Naruto herself since he can't do so himself. He blushes and is excited at the thought of having her feed him.

 

Naruto chapter 458:

Sai: I don't know what kind of promise Naruto made to you, but even I can tell he really LOVES you!

 

Sai used the word "love." So, in the manga it is stated that Naruto loves Sakura.

 

Naruto chapter 631:

Minato: Are you Naruto's girlfriend?

Naruto: Uhhh.... ummm, yeah! Well, that's more or less it.

 

I chose this scene because it is a fairly recent scene that shows that Naruto still likes Sakura. If he didn't care about her, he would have just said, "No." But, not only does this show that likes her, but that he sees that their relationship is a close one and he believes that she is the girl he is closest to, which is why he said, "Yes, she's my girlfriend, more or less." Another way of saying, not officially, but we act like one.

 

So just some friendly advice, if you want to argue your points again, don't just selectively choose information to be true or untrue according to what you want. It is fact that Naruto has feelings for Sakura. Ignoring that makes your argument weak.

 

Phewphie. Glad I got that finished. Sooo, if you post again, I don't think I'm going to comment because it's obvious you won't change your mind and you certainly aren't making me change my mind. That was a nice debate though. I could've done without the personal degradation you unrightfully gave me (personal attacks never have a place in a intelligent debates), BUT, I enjoy a good debate every once in a while. ^^

 

Anonymous NH

"reinforced that Naruto cares for Sakura romantically."

He cares about her, just not romantically. Romanticizing worry and care won't get you far.

 

" they just like to spend time together. He cheers her up and she cheers him up. They protect each other. How is that a shallow relationship?"

It's not shallow at all, in fact that's what close friends do. You just described everything a good friend does. What is shallow is his crush which is never put on the same level of importance of the love in which Hinata has on Naruto and Sakura has for Sasuke.

 

"as well as the girl of his dreams, Sakura."

I'm still not understanding how Sakura will play in this role. She doesn't love him romantically and any kind of change in affection on her part will only prove that she is a fickle woman, which she obviously isn't. This is if not the last arc, so what makes you think her feelings will change in literally one day (in narutoverse)?

 

" Oops, looks like you just disproved your whole ship, because Naruto has never hinted at liking Hinata. "

Yet he protects her, thanks her, and even holds her hand in front of a whole alliance, which that gesture in itself is universally known as romantic. Oops, where's you manifesto on Sakura liking Naruto ever? Honestly.

You have a girl who risks her life, confesses her love, and is shown to be someone who is willing to die for this character. Her presence is never negative towards Naruto nor does Naruto get turned off by her presence. He literally clutches his chest at the thought of Hinata's well-being, thinking to himself, "Thank god." while Hinata does the same. Kishi sure loves parallels, huh ;)

 

"please don't comment on the journal and direct any comments you have here. "

I don't feel the need to read nor comment on your journal. Damn you're dedicated, I'll give you that.

 

"popularity of SasuSaku and NaruHina has no influence over what will happen in the manga, especially the popularity here in America. Actually, according to the most recent Japanese couple popularity poll I've seen, the most popular het ships are NaruSaku and SasuSaku. NaruHina was down about 40,000 votes, I believe. In Japan, the audience prefers Sakura over Hinata, by the fact that Sakura has beaten Hinata in popularity polls every time except for about two times, and therefore ships involving Sakura are more popular. "

Yeah, but just wonder why exactly SS and NH are more popular than NS. And actually the most recent pairing poll shows SS as first, IS second, NH third, and NS in like 5-6th place.

And actually, out of all the character polls, Hinata wins Sakura 6 times and Sakura wins Hinata 6 times as well. They're at a tie. The fact that Hinata even shows up in all the character polls should tell you about her popularity in Japan.

 

"Sasuke telling Sakura to be nice to Naruto has nothing to do with this and proves nothing about their relationship being familial. "

I'm not talking about familial here. I'm talking about how it's ironic that Sasuke is the one that made it possible for Sakura and Naruto's friendship to come so far, and THAT is something you cannot disprove.

 

"Saying constantly hardly makes me look like a fool. "

Actually, it does. You make it seem like Sakura is his number 1 priority when it wasn't even that important to begin with. Remember, Naruto wanted admiration, to be seen as a human and not a monster. Guess who was the first female to do this? Hinata. Do you really think someone like Naruto, who never experienced love until Iruka, Team 7, etc. would reject a girl who has loved him her whole life? Think about that, dearie.

 

"So claiming that Naruto doesn't love Sakura and "never has" makes your argument extremely vulnerable to being ripped apart."

Well I mean he hasn't so what's your point again?

 

"Naruto chapter 457:

Sai: Naruto, you like Sakura, don't you.

Naruto: WHA?!

Sai: I read it in a book. People always smile around people they like, and you're always smiling at her. Have you told her how you feel?

Naruto: How can I? I can't even keep my promises...

"

Notice how Sai says "like", not "love". There's a big difference between these two terms, hun.

And Sakura knows about Naruto's feelings so I'm not sure why you even pointed that out.

 

"Naruto chapter 458:

Sai: I don't know what kind of promise Naruto made to you, but even I can tell he really LOVES you!

 

Sai used the word "love." So, in the manga it is stated that Naruto loves Sakura."

It'a funny how you need a third party to tell you all this information, while SS and NH already have their confessions. And Sai basically GUILT TRIPS Sakura into loving Naruto. Have you not seen how corrupt Sai is? I mean this kid has been emotionless his whole life, and you're using him as evidence for your ship? The fact that you need a third party to validate your ship is already pathetic tbh.

 

"If he didn't care about her, he would have just said, "No." But, not only does this show that likes her, but that he sees that their relationship is a close one and he believes that she is the girl he is closest to, which is why he said, "Yes, she's my girlfriend, more or less." Another way of saying, not officially, but we act like one. "

1) Comedic scene, just look at Minato's face and the aftermath.

2) Sakura STILL doesn't like the thought of being Naruto's girlfriend. That should say a lot about her feelings towards him romance-wise.

3) That whole chapter is supposed to emphasize the reborn Team 7, so naturally the girlfriend jokes would come back as a sort of nostalgia from the past team 7.

 

"So just some friendly advice, if you want to argue your points again, don't just selectively choose information to be true or untrue according to what you want. It is fact that Naruto has feelings for Sakura. Ignoring that makes your argument weak. "

Never in my argument did I ignore his feelings for Sakura. The lack of strength and passion in his crush over her is what seperates Naruto's crush from Hinata and Sakura's love.

 

Think about the ladies, man. There's some nice life tips for ya.

Ironic how you're refusing to reply even though you instigated this whole thing. Nice logic, man.

Personal attacks? Omg you had me on a laughing fit on that one. Nice try, bud ;)

 

Anonymous NS

To that whole thing, I've got one word: lolz

deviantID

Ssafloyd's Profile Picture
Ssafloyd
Melissa
Artist | Hobbyist | Varied
United States
Current Residence: Denver, CO
Favorite genre of music: Opera
Favorite style of art: oil paint
Favorite cartoon character: Zero Kiryu from Vampire Knight or Sho Fuwa from SkipBeat! ahahahaa!!
Interests

AdCast - Ads from the Community

×

Comments


Add a Comment:
 
:iconautobubbs:
AutoBubbs Featured By Owner Aug 19, 2014
A belated thanks for the watch (if I haven't thanked you already).
Reply
:iconv2rocketproductions:
V2rocketproductions Featured By Owner Aug 17, 2014  Hobbyist Filmographer
thanks for the watch :)
Reply
:iconautobubbs:
AutoBubbs Featured By Owner Aug 14, 2014
Thanks 4 teh :llama:
Reply
:iconask-sheila-mancilla:
Ask-Sheila-Mancilla Featured By Owner Aug 14, 2014
thanks for the llama.
Reply
:iconhiro-sama-x:
hiro-sama-x Featured By Owner Jul 28, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
Thank you for the fav ;_; <3
Reply
:iconautobubbs:
AutoBubbs Featured By Owner Jun 8, 2014
Thanks for the faves and the watch!  I'd give you another :llama: if they'd let me! ;)
Reply
:iconooonaruto-chanooo:
oOoNaruto-chanoOo Featured By Owner Mar 26, 2014  Hobbyist Photographer
Thanks for the +fav =) (Smile)

I love my Family by oOoNaruto-chanoOo

My Fanpage: www.facebook.com/oOoNarutochan…
Reply
:iconravenroth19:
RavenRoth19 Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2014
thanks for the llama
Reply
:iconartsbyligawolverine:
ArtsByLigaWolverine Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2014  Student General Artist
Thanks fro Llama ^^

:tailsflys: 
Reply
:icondave37:
DAVE37 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
Thanks for da llama
Reply
Add a Comment: